And it’s only recently, since the bloodless coup that took place last November, that I’ve recognized the depth of the damage to America that it could well be doing… I don’t actually scream about it.. It’s only on a few blogs where I intentionally stir the pot on the subject… and I’ve learned a lot since doing it…

Shortly after 911, on another blog that I inhabited, a whole bunch of people started carryon on about how the only way we could defeat radical islam is if we all return to jesus etc… and that just made me nuts… and in much the same way that it affected Richard Dawkins, I just said to myself one day, that enough was enough…

I’ve been disgusted by the concept of religion since an early age… Oddly enough, the very idea of a god who would brutally kill his own son to make a point was one of the first things that I remember that truly disgusted me… but ultimately it was the hypocrisy and the political power aspect of it that really made me hate it with a passion… We’re creatures of free will, and religion denys that when it says that we’re born with a tendency to sin…. I’m not going to play a game with loaded dice…. that’s not a rational way to look at man’s true place in the overall scheme of things…

Ayn Rand helped to clarify lots of things for me in the 60′s.. I attended her lectures at Brandon’s institute back then, & got to speak with her several times, & she just mesmerized me.. I consider her the most important philosopher in the last hundred years… and ever since I discovered her, I’ve been hearing idiots who’ve never even read her, calling her a fascist and worse….

I was a philosophy major at NYU, & I’ve studied it all from Aristotle to Sartre, & of course religion was a big player through much of the history….

Remember Madeline Murray. ?

I remember the first line in her Playboy interview in the early 60′s.. The interviewer asked her why she was an atheist, and she replied, because religion is a crutch and I’m not a cripple… (or words to that effect..)

That’s always stuck with me…

S

I do have one question, Swemson. Why does everything that’s bad and evil have you running around screaming that it’s all because of religion?

Not every Evil in the world stems from religion. It stems from domination of one man over the freedoms of another.

Like you, I have a problem with organized religion, but that doesn’t interfere with my faith, or my beliefs. If every church were suddenly to vanish, it wouldn’t phase me in the least.

I would like to aplogize to everyone else for letting this get so far off topic.

I’ve said this, I don’t know how many times. I don’t give a shit what they do in the bedroom, as long as they leave it there.

2) Homosexuality isn’t a civil liberty, it’s a sexual preference.

Of course ! So does that mean that if the majority of people prefer chocolate, that they have a right to impose a special tax on people who prefer vanilla ?

LOL, they tax both.

Seriously, though, when they become more accepting of what everyone else does, they’ll get respect.

I have gay friends, my wife has a gay brother. I like them, I don’t judge them, but at the same time, they don’t want to get married. They consider it a stupid idea.

3) I get the impression that like me, you’re over 50.. & I’d hate to think of you stroking out during your routine prostate exams…

I’m ten years younger, and have been in the medical field for 14 years, so I can clinically describe the body parts and tell the proper functions. This isn’t a religious discussion, it’s a medical one.

A routine prostate exam wouldn’t bother me, but having the doctor say, “Man, this is soooo cool, and yet exciting….” might bother me a bit. Not the fact that he’d be gay, but that it would be an inappropriate thing to say.

Between you, me, and the band here, the things that Obama is doing drive me nuts, and I do scream about them, but I don’t bring religion into it, and for some reason, that seems to be your obsession. Not that there’s anything wrong with obsessions.

Trust me, other than a few times a week, Religion doesn’t enter into the equation at all. Like you, I am not a big fan of organized religion and think that it sometimes serves to close minds. But I do have my beliefs, and more and more, I find myself in the same mindset as George Washington, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton.

Did you ever think that you might be putting the cart before the horse…. ?

I see a comparison here between America’s attitude to gays and blacks..

You can’t deny that blacks were treated horridly by white America before the civil war… and that until now, white America has been taking a lot of undeserved crap from blacks who have turned white guilt into a shakedown….

Would so many blacks behave in such outrageous ways, if they had been treated with repect as human beings from day one….

I think not.

The same IMHO is true of the gays… They have been treated horribly by straight people throughout history, and the people who have treated them the worst have ALWAYS been the religious zealots who constantly carry on about how their lifestyle is sinful.

I went to NYU in Greenwich Village in the early to mid 1960′s, and believe you I saw the entire pallet of human weirdness back then, and they never bothered me or offended me…. One of the slang terms that the sophisticated set refers to them as is “the children”.. because many of them are indeed childlike in their view on life and their position in normal society… “Oh… don’t worry about the children… they just like to dress up and make noise, they’re not dangerous at all” (BTW: They do throw the best Halloween parties I’ve ever seen…)

I think that the gay activism that we see today more and more, is a direct result of the way that they’re constantly being singled out and vilified for who and what they are… The have to rebel somehow…. but they don’t burn down their neighborhoods, or commit reverse hate crimes of their own.. instead they dress up in outrageous costumes and go into a church to take communion… and to watch Bill O’Reilly go apoplectic over it… I wish I had a buck for every time he used the words “defile the sacrament”

Of course they show their resentment towards the church, and they shout out for equal status and respect, because that’s where the bigoted behavior against them originates from…

You say:

Homosexuality isn’t a civil liberty, it’s a sexual preference.

Of course ! So does that mean that if the majority of people prefer chocolate, that they have a right to impose a special tax on people who prefer vanilla ?

THIS ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS SIMPLY ABSURD !

Our government and our constitution doesn’t exist in order to establish societal norms…. Society creates a constitutional government of laws to protect itself from, amongst other things, majorities trying to impose their will on individuals and minorities..

And to bring my central point home, I get frustrated because rather than talking ONLY about the political and economic issues that are tearing our country apart right now, we’re wasting time constantly screaming about what a small number of deviant does ion their bedrooms…

Joe.. THIS IS INSANE….

We’ve got communists in the white house that’s using our tax dollars to give aid and comfort to our enemies, and yet the religious right want to talk about what a few fairies are doing in their bedrooms ????

What part of that is NOT insane in your eyes… ?

And BTW, please leave the definition of what the proper functions of the anus are out of this subject… Muslims are really crazy about their a$$holes… they refer to it as their “holy of holies”.. I hope you’re not similarly afflicted…

I get the impression that like me, you’re over 50.. & I’d hate to think of you stroking out during your routine prostate exams…

Marriage isn’t a civil liberty, it’s a human liberty. What happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom, but Gay people aren’t satisfied with the bedroom, they want the schools, churches, the parks, and the theaters.

Gay people don’t want to live under the same rules the rest of us live by, they want their own special rules. Consider the following: We are asked to be tolerant of them, but at the same time, they can call us homo-phobes, call us bigots, try to cram GLBT education down the throats of kindergarten thru 5 graders, they want to destroy the nuclear family and replace it with one where a child of 4 can screw another child of 4 and nobody says anything.

The rules and laws that we follow aren’t god’s laws, they are man’s laws, and have been handed down since the time of tribes. The only true laws of God are “Love your neighbor as yourself,” and “Do unto others what you’d have them do to you.”

They want laws passed that make it a hate crime to speak out against anything they do, but at the same time, they can show real hate to the rest of the country and can get away with it because they are “gay.”
They can call us names, and threaten to kill us, but if we point out that two gays humping is hygenically unwise and spreads disease, we are called haters.
When normal folk point to the fact that gays don’t like committment, and will have 100′s of partners a year, we are called bigots and accused to hating them.
When a church refuses to marry them, they take it to court, and when they don’t win, they accuse the judge of being bigoted, they just prove that they aren’t mature enough to think straight.

Social scientist can point to the fact that gay men have multiple partners and don’t do committment, and that the lack of committment can be seen by other people, and they think they don’t have to committ, and so on and so on.
And you don’t think that would affect civilization in some way?

My religious views have nothing to with this argument, because to be honest, the bible doesn’t say anything about Gays, other than “Thou shalt not lay with man, like you lay with a woman.”

From the medical standpoint, the anus isn’t designed to have objects inserted into it, and when it breaks, it can lead to bloody discharges, which carry disease. Not to mention that gays haven’t been known to use condoms, and with the multiple partners, have spread syphillis, gonorea, and STD’s.

If this seems to ramble, it’s my fault. I had a clear concise reply, but my blackberry screwed up and wouldn’t let me send it. (lol)

You know too, that I respect you, and I’d never call you stupid.. I simply contend that your religious beliefs are blindingyou from seeing the issue rationally…

Point 1: I’m only talking about laws prohibiting behavior that harms nobody else… Two gays getting married affects nobody else’s right to use the marriage ceremony as they see fit… You can’t say that about sharia.. there’s good and rational laws that prevent men from beating or killing their wives… Majority rules does not mean that the majority has the right to restrict the civil rights of minorities.

Point 2: I don’t give a damn what you’re religious / conservative motivated research says, what 2 people do in the privacy of their own home is nobody’s business but theirs…

The current scientific thinking is that gay marriage will destablize the family unit and will lead to the destruction of civilization.

is pure horsecrap ! How the hell can what less than 1% of the population do lead to the destruction of civilization… THAT’S INSANE.. Gays have been around in probably the same proportions to straight people throughout civilization’s history… how have what they do harmed you thus far….? OTHER THAN FOR PRIESTS BUGGERING INNOCENT YOUNG BOYS ?

Point 3: NONSENSE ! We don’t live in a democracy.. We live in a republic governed by laws…. The people can vote on whether to build this highway or that, or on any other issues that affect all people the same way…. if majority rule was inviolate, we’d never have passed the civil rights act… The majority can’t just pass laws that only affect a small minority of citizens, especially if those laws are based on religious beliefs, UNLESS they’re involved in behavior that violates the rights of OTHER citizens… You may be disgusted by the thought of what they’re doing in the privacy of their own homes, hell, it disgusts me… but that doesn’t give you any moral or legal right to restrict what they’re doing if it doesn’t affect you, any more than we have a right to block people like far left radicals from spewing their hateful ideas on national TV… It’s called free speech !

Point 4: You’re correct when you make the argument that islam is worse by a huge order of magnitude… but the CORE PHILOSOPHICAL MOTIVATION IS INDEED THE SAME…. It’s simple… My god’s teachings are absolute, and you will obey them or else….. Islam beheads you, christians just throw you in jail…. Is it a BIG DIFFERENCE, sure, but the principle is EXACTLY the same.

You know full well that I respect 99% of the ethical and moral rules that christianity teaches….. that’s not the issue…

The issue here is simple, and that’s that in this country, it is wrong for people to legislate personal behavior that affects nobody but the consentual adults involved…

I admit that some of my views may seem extreme to many others… but I simply do not believe in the concept of victimless crimes… It’s the same with drugs, and I’ve had my opinions blasted on that subject here as well… Sure I care about the lives ruined by drugs and the suffering of the poor in the ghettos.. I simply prioritize my concerns, and place my concern for the teenaged crack junkie, behind my concern for the elderly lady who he attacks on the street to get his drug money from….

If a bunch of gays in drag (or not) break into your home in order to have their wedding there, you’re perfectly entitled to grab your shotgun and blow them all away as far as I’m concerned…. not because they’re gay, but because they violated your rights to enjoy YOUR property…

Who the hell are you or anyone else to tell them what they can or can’t do in the privacy of their own homes… If they do it in YOUR church, then join another church !

1) What I DO NOT respect is their decision to force their views on minorities that don’t think like they do…

It’s a majority rule country, not a minority rule country. If the people voted on this, and 75% of the people or more voted on it, then it’s a law. If the minority doesn’t like it, then they can try again at the ballot. But taking it to the court is a waste of time, and it just angers those how have already voted.

There are less than 1% of the people that are muslims. Because there are 1% of the population, should they get to have Sharia law and abuse their wives and kill their daughters for loss of reputation?

2) Can’t you see that what they’re doing with these absurd laws they’re trying to pass, is attempting to legislate what other people, who are DIFFERENT from them can do ?

I don’t think these laws are absurd. Sodomy laws have been on the books since the 1700′s. Those laws were legislated by representatives.

This tends to get way off topic, but there have been studies done that prove that gays don’t stay together for more than two years at most. In fact, the two women that got gay marriage started, have already gotten divorced. The current scientific thinking is that gay marriage will destablize the family unit and will lead to the destruction of civilization.

Polls have proven that a majority of the gays don’t want marriage, but a vocal radical minority pushed it through. I know gay people who really don’t care to get married, because they consider it Society’s way, and they don’t want to be like the rest of us.

3) NO group of people, no matter how huge of a majority they might be, under our constitutional system, have the right to create laws that restrict the individual freedoms & liberties of ANY minority.

Sure they do, it’s called majority rules. It’s what happens when you vote. The person with the most votes wins. It’s how Obama got elected. Besides, nobody is restricting any freedoms or liberties. Gay people have the same rights you and I do. Gay guys have the right to marry a woman, and gay women have the right to marry a man. They don’t want the same rights, they want special rights. The right to marry same sex. If they can’t get that right, they’ll sue to get it, and overturn the will of the people. How it that fair? That nine people in black robes can overturn the wishes of millions?

4) Philosophically speaking, when you get down to their root core motivations, there’s no difference between christians passing laws preventing gays from getting married, an islamic fanatics beheading infidels.. It’s the same principal, it only differs in the degree of brutality with which it’s expressed.

Excuse me, but there is a difference, even though Christians don’t want gay people to get married, they respect the laws and they won’t kill the gay person for being gay. In muslim countries, gay people get stoned, beheaded, and left for dead. I know of another difference. On the few occasions that gay people have been beaten up, the Christians have spoken out against the violence and have called the offenders out for it. So far, Muslims have not even lifted up their voices to speak against the senseless deaths of gays, lesbians, and little girls that have “Dishonored” their family.

Like most people, I can live and let live, and like most people, I get offended when I’m called a homo-phobe and a racist, even though it’s stupidity I’m speaking out against.

Before you say anything, I’m not calling you stupid. I even respect your opinions, but I don’t have to stand by and let you spout out things that aren’t true.

Listen to exactly what you said…….

You just aren’t willing to respect their decision.

I completely respect their decision, to live THEIR lives according to their OWN religious and moral principles….

What I DO NOT respect is their decision to force their views on minorities that don’t think like they do…

They’re not voting on what THEIR rights should be, they’re voting on what a tiny MINORITY group’s rights should be….

Religious people don’t need a law to tell them the meaning of what marriage is.. they’ve known that for thousands of years…

Can’t you see that what they’re doing with these absurd laws they’re trying to pass, is attempting to legislate what other people, who are DIFFERENT from them can do ?

That’s not what America is about, and that’s the reason why our founding fathers were wise enough to fear a connection between church and state

Laws in the free society envisioned by our founding fathers were meant to limit what powers the government could have over the people, and to protect the INDIVIDUAL rights of its citizens…

NO group of people, no matter how huge of a majority they might be, under our constitutional system, have the right to create laws that restrict the individual freedoms & liberties of ANY minority..

THIS is precisely why I despise religious zealots.. They believe that they alone have a divine monopoly on what’s right and wrong, and they believe is so devoutly that they think that they have the right to set the rules for everyone else…

Philosophically speaking, when you get down to their root core motivations, there’s no difference between christians passing laws preventing gays from getting married, an islamic fanatics beheading infidels.. It’s the same principal, it only differs in the degree of brutality with which it’s expressed.

Why can’t you just live and let live…?.

Those people are no threat to you…