Next I wonder if we will hear the old saw about the military issueing small pox infected blankets which was a lie. The fact is that there were atrocities on both sides. This land was going to be settled and if not by western europeans then maybe later when by someone else

—

You anticipated an argument from me I had not made. But I am so glad you did as it had me discover some other elements I find useful for discussion (more on that later).

As far as survival being the primary concern; this does not negate the fact that even the more brutal and barbaric actions were seen as necessary for their ultimate survival. They indeed saw themselves as “victimized” by the resistance of Native Americans to the encroachment of their land by foreign invaders (a situation analogous to the concern today about the ability of Mexican illegal immigrants to flood the country with *their* numbers and forever alter the demographics and power dynamics). Certainly shows how critical border control is.

Regardless of “official” military policy or that of the government of the US, the Native American inhabitants that preceded the massive European influx were certainly decimated, marginalized, and forcibly relocated as a result of the European’s notion of Manifest Destiny. For a people so tied to Western concepts of law and justice and property rights, the failure to honor treaties once made seems not to cause them too much grief. I guess “valid” contracts are only those you can enforce.

Looks like yet another example of Heller’s “Catch-22″.

One last thing Jackie-boy, I’d be careful about throwing around terms such as “buffoon” (correct spelling), because unless English is not your primary language, you appear to struggle with literacy. Regardless, your ideas and grasp of facts is often rudimentary at best.

Just sayin’.

See: Jeffrey Amherst and Smallpox Blankets – http://www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/amherst/lord_jeff.html

Conclusion

… we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect.

—-

It’s ironic that you bring up a point of argumentation that I hadn’t made, make a pronouncement on the validity of that argument, and turn out to be in error regardless.

—–

Similarly, the accounts I’ve read indicated that part of drive to slaughter the buffalo wholesale was to deprive the Native Americans of a resource that afforded them means to live off the land independently, where instead it was desired to have the leverage to move them onto reservations and require outside assistance for their survival (even then, mass die-offs of reservation Indians occurred from starvation and succumbing to the elements).

See: http://www.snowcrest.net/kirkrudy/texts/03-009-012.html

Texts of the North American Indian
Writings of E.S. Curtis
Excerpts from “The North American Indian” Set #254, Vol. 3

That the destruction was the most brutal and improvident of its kind in the history of civilization there is no question, and that those who went out and mowed the animals down by scores and hundreds in a single day are deserving of every criticism there is no doubt; but when we view the question in a broader way, the blame would seem to rest not entirely with those who shouldered the guns. It was public sentiment that slaughtered the western herd of the American bison — a sentiment which, fostered by our desire further to oppress, to bring under subjection, and to rob of their birthright a people already driven for two generations before a greedily advancing civilization, was supported by the people as represented in the halls of Congress, and which became the governmental policy. Here lay the blame. We slaughtered the buffalo in order to starve the Indians of the plains into submission, thereby forcing them into a position in which they must take what we saw fit to dole out to them.

—

You pretty much prove the point that Fredy Perlman made when citing Herman Melville in regards to the mindset of Indian hunters. They perceived themselves the victims and as such could justify any number of atrocities.

I understand that the notion of Native Americans as “noble savages” is a myth, but to dismiss their desire to retain control and viability in their ancestral lands based exclusively on a might makes right model seems fairly arrogant. Would you apply that same logic to assimilate to every other distinct culture? Are some more disposable than others?

—

Joseph Heller once said, “Catch-22 means people have the right to do to you anything that you cannot prevent them from doing to you.”

As Kurt Vonnegut once said about how human civilization will be viewed, “We could have done so much better.”

from: http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-beirut-program-fredy-perlman

[excerpt]

The trick of declaring war against the armed resistance and then attacking the resisters’ unarmed kin as well as the sur­rounding population with the most gruesome products of Death-Science; this trick is not new. American Pioneers were pioneers in this too; they made it standard practice to declare war on indigenous warriors and then to murder and burn villages with only women and children in them. This is already modern war, what we know as war against civilian populations; it has also been called, more candidly, mass murder or genocide.

It’s as if the experience of being a victim gave exemption from human solidarity,
as if it gave special powers, as if it gave a license to kill.

I owe you an apology sir.

In you post above, you were apparently speaking to Lance, rather than to me… Perhaps you feel the same way about me though, & if that’s so, that’s OK… But I think the difference between my atheism and Lance’s hatred of just about everyone but himself is pretty self evident…

In any event, I called you a religious loon, and I shouldn’t have, and for that sir, I am sorry…

FS

A simple statement of fact…

I intentionally make wise cracks at religious ideas that some people post here just to stir up the debate…

If you want to see where I’m REALLY coming from, please look at the last several posts between Denise and I on the following recent blog here at Newsreel:

http://newsrealblog.com/2009/09/26/from-the-pen-of-david-horowitz-september/#comment-10159

Start about 5 or 6 entries prior to the last exchange at the very bottom, and you’ll see exactly what I’m referring to. Denise made the same criticisms of me that other religious folks made, & after a few good exchanges, she began to see what I was really trying to say:

You may not approve with my methods, but I think you’ll be surprised to see how deeply you’ve misunderstood my motives…